The FNN (Flat Neighborhood Network) paradox
Many of your questions may have already been answered in earlier discussions or in the FAQ. The search results page will indicate current discussions as well as past list serves, articles, and papers.
Horatio B. Bogbindero wyy at cersa.admu.edu.phWed Feb 21 16:46:06 PST 2001
- Previous message: The FNN (Flat Neighborhood Network) paradox
- Next message: pbslam: PBS Interface Script for LAM
- Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
> > > Thanks for great idea - I will try to check this. > > > > I will try to prepare first 4 node beowulf tonight :) > > I will put to every node 3 nics and I connect this without any switch. > > After this I will put in every node only one nic and I compare the > > benchmark results. > > If I understand you, you are planning to build a hypercube. I've played > briefly with hypercubes, and concluded that (like the FNN) it is an idea > that makes sense at all only in a market topology where switches are > very expensive compared to NICs. > the BNN is not quite a hypercube. it is an N-circulant graph. to be specific it is a G(8;+/-1,4). http://cersa.admu.edu.ph/wyu/papers/net-csp.pdf is a paper about it. it starts off from explaining what the other topologies and moves towards the circulant graph topology. there are also some results on this presentation. i was thinking first of using a butterfly caley-graph and even the classic hypercube. but, my adviser suggested that we use circulant graphs because he did a thesis on it and it was promising. > Remember, even for a tetrahedral four node beowulf, you must spend > perhaps $20 (or more, of course) per NIC, or $60 per node. Four nodes > require 12 NICs and six cables for a total cost of around $270 or more. > Yes there are cheaper NICs available (e.g. RTL8139's) but I've had > terrible luck with these in the one hypercube I tried to build with them > and still have a whole stack of them sitting in my junk hardware pile as > a consequence. > > A five port switch costs perhaps $70 (or less if you shop hard) -- eight > port switches are as little as $80. A switched port costs LESS than a > NIC these days. Admittedly these switches are likely to be > store-and-forward with mediocre latency, but even better switches aren't > that expensive anymore. Add in only FOUR NICs and cables @$25 each, and > you can get effortless connections for only $170 and have an extra port > to connect up a head node or to another switch. > > The other things to consider are: > > a MUCH more complicated topology. Routing tables have to be built to > manage each node's path to the other hypercubical nodes. yup. routing tables are different per group. however, the pipelining is wonderful with this topology as compared to channel-bonding. > a MUCH higher latency if you you go beyond the number of NICs your > PCI bus can hold (also you have to turn on real routing and build really > complicated routing tables). well i can write a small script for generating routing tables for it. in the paper we have a routing algorithm in place too. > a MUCH greater human cost to build it and maintain it (see > "complicated" in the previous two entries). because it is. > finally, in order to get the advantage of possibly aggregate > bisection bandwidth, you mustn't be blocked at e.g. the kernel level so > that you are effectively only using one NIC at a time anyway. Expensive > NICs may use DMA and a carefully written application (one with > nonblocking I/O, for example) may then allow you to get some advantage > in terms of aggregate bandwidth, but cheap NICs or careless applications > probably won't. > so so true. > In my own experimental hypercube, aggregate internode performance was > actually measurably worse than on a switch and attempting to talk on > all channels in parallel actually destabilized the kernel of that day > and caused systems crashes (early 2.2.x's). Which made average > internode performance REALLY bad when the crash recovery program was > taken into account. This could likely all have been resolved -- with a > lot of work. Instead I went out and bought a (then) $220 8 port switch > and never looked back. > true. we were actually looking into IP and kernel problems. however, one glimmer of hope was the successful implementation of the FNN. > In conclusion, one is as likely to get WORSE overall performance (unless > one works very hard to tune up or uses a package like the channel > bonding package where others have done the work for you), work MUCH > harder (which is a real cost), and pay a lot more (which is a real > cost). Higher cost, less benefit. > > The FNN solution shares some of the features of the hypercube -- if one > has to buy the switches it is more expensive unless you're talking about > a really big flat network. One has to manage routing tables so > complicated that only an optimization (e.g. simulated annealing, > genetic) algorithm is capable of building them -- they are analogous to > solving the N Queens problem in chess (in fact they are probably > equivalent to the inverse of the N Queens problem or something like > that). > > One still has to worry about the kernel's ability to manage network > transactions on 3 channels as efficiently as on one. It may or may not > lead to greater aggregate bisection bandwidth, depending on DMA and how > the application is written and how reliably the NIC device driver is > integrated with the kernel (interrupts on multiple devices using the > same driver obviously have to be carefully and predictably resolvable). > A NIC without DMA will obviously just block anyway until a transmission > is completed -- two transmissions can never be resolved in parallel. > > Channel bonding, on the other hand, solves a very different problem -- > how to get more raw internode bandwidth using any given kind of NIC. > This is also "expensive" in human time and possibly system time, but it > may be the cheapest (or only!) way to get internode bandwidth in certain > exotic ranges. If you have a parallel application that is not > particularly sensitive to latency but needs huge interprocessor > bandwidth to scale well, it can easily be your ticket to a functional > design (for a largish but still COTS price). If I recall what Don > Becker once told me, your aggregate bandwidth increases, not quite > linearly, for up to three NICs but the fourth (at the time of the > discussion, not necessarily now) was either not worth it or actually > decreased aggregate bandwidth a bit. > -------------------------------------- William Emmanuel S. Yu Ateneo Cervini-Eliazo Networks (ACENT) email : william.s.yu at ieee.org web : http://cersa.admu.edu.ph/ phone : 63(2)4266001-5925/5904 Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor. -- Wernher von Braun
- Previous message: The FNN (Flat Neighborhood Network) paradox
- Next message: pbslam: PBS Interface Script for LAM
- Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
More information about the Beowulf mailing list
